From Juilliard to Games: Finding the Soul in Narrative Design (feat. Leif Oleson-Cormack)

Written By Cory Sellar

Introduction

joins a creative powerhouse who has been described as an "Edmonton art scene in a box."

A Juilliard-trained playwright, award-winning comedian, and narrative designer known for titles like The Low Road and Tales Noir Preludes, Leif Olesen-Cormack joins the show fresh off his hosting duties at the 2025 Alberta Games Series. His conversation with host Cory “Sellarcast” Sellar dives deep into the complex intersection of traditional performance and digital storytelling, exploring what it takes to find the elusive "soul" in modern game development.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Shift to Sustainable Indie Development

Leif kicks off the conversation with insights from the Alberta Game Series, noting a distinct shift in the industry’s mood: a move toward self-sufficiency. Leif emphasizes that modern creators can no longer wait for the "cavalry" of major studios or investors to save them. The focus is now on building sustainable indie studios from scratch and shipping your own content rather than relying on external validation.

2. The AI Debate: The 'Soul' vs. Utility

Leif and Cory tackle the controversial topic of artificial intelligence with a nuanced perspective. While Leif admits AI is an excellent tool for "boring" administrative tasks, he argues that it fundamentally lacks the "soul" required for true connection and innovation in art. He references a Wayne Gretzky quote to explain the limitation: AI simply "goes where the puck used to be," repurposing existing work rather than creating something truly new.

3. Comedy in a "Dead Engine"

One of the episode's highlights is Leif’s breakdown of the unique difficulty of writing comedy for video games. Unlike theatre, where a performer can adjust to the audience, a game is a "dead engine." The challenge is landing jokes when player agency allows the user to disrupt traditional comedic timing. Leif shares how his work on The Low Road involved reverse-engineering stories to fit existing assets, creating "conversation puzzles" to manipulate characters through information rather than relying on endless text.

4. The Edmonton Advantage

Despite having lived and trained in major hubs like New York, Leif champions Edmonton as a superior training ground for artists. He explains that while comedians in New York often pay to perform for empty rooms, Edmonton offers the chance to get up in front of real audiences multiple times a week. This environment allows artists to fail, learn, and grow faster than they would in more saturated markets.

Conclusion

This episode offers a fascinating and essential look at how skills from the theatre and comedy worlds translate into the technical realm of game design. Leif wraps up the show with a preview of his upcoming comedy album recording, Alone Ranger, taking place at the Grindstone Theatre on December 5th.

Listen now to hear Leif’s full take on the future of narrative and independent game creation!

  • Welcome to Good Game Edmonton, I'm your host Cory "Sellarcast" Sellar. My next guest is a Juilliard-trained playwright, an award-winning comedian, and a narrative designer and writer who's worked on Edmonton's own The Low Road and Vancouver's Tales Noir Preludes. He's recording his first stand-up album, live at the Grindstone Theatre, this December and co-runs a weekly comedy show at BLAKBAR Tavern. He's basically an Edmonton art scene in a box.

    Please welcome to Good Game Edmonton, Leif Olsen Cormack. Thanks for joining me. Love it, love it. Thanks so much, Leaf.

    Leif (00:58.488)

    Hey Cory, thanks for having me.

    So when your parents named you Sellarcast as your middle name, did you feel that you were forced to become a podcaster? Was that... No?

    Cory (01:10.766)

    No, Well, mean, Sellarcast was just kind of a nickname that I gave myself. And I'm really trying to make it stick. Seller, you know, I was just I was born with Sellar. Sellarcast was just inevitable. You know, watching George Lucas films, you know, need to have that name plastered all over. So, yeah, it's a good time.

    Leif (01:18.137)

    you're really trying to make it stick. This is like fetch, yeah.

    Leif (01:26.029)

    Yeah.

    Leif (01:37.698)

    I feel like your backdrop should be just like a seller, a crypt in the background. Just really lean into it. Yeah.

    Cory (01:43.182)

    Just a wine cellar like old old medieval old England. I mean my grandpa was British

    Leif (01:49.314)

    Yeah. And then you do the voice, it wouldn't work. It would be a little, yeah. I think it'd get a little trying.

    Cory (01:54.574)

    I'd have to, yeah, maybe I have to talk Shakespearean or something. Well, I do appreciate you joining me today. I have to say this is the second time we've chatted as we cross paths earlier this year where you were the face of the 2025 Alberta game series back in early October.

    Leif (01:59.245)

    Yeah.

    Cory (02:22.35)

    Of course for those who don't know it was a two-packed was a two-day event packed with programming featuring industry speakers a pitch competition game showcase Networking and from what I heard a after party where the drinks were probably flowing I wasn't there so I can't comment but I clearly missed out They were really flowing there we go, so leaf how

    Leif (02:40.334)

    missed out.

    They were really flowing, yes, it was a lot.

    Leif (02:49.378)

    It's great because you get to see, like with a game event, you see all these introverts slowly become extroverts for the first time all at once. it's weird. It's a lot of big talk.

    Cory (02:56.204)

    Yep.

    Yeah

    Cory (03:04.494)

    That's a lot of big talk. feel like that was reminds me of the intro with The Last of Us when everyone started turning into zombies. Yeah.

    Leif (03:13.994)

    It kind of was, and it had that thing. like the, and it was like yeast. It like, it's the beer that is taking over their brains. Yeah.

    Cory (03:20.166)

    It was right. my God. It was bread. It was bread baked bakery in for the last of us and bar for AGS OK. OK. Now we got that covered. Cool. Well I have to wait. We just.

    Leif (03:27.392)

    Yes.

    Leif (03:36.823)

    We just cracked it. The Last of Us is a metaphor for alcoholism. That's what it is.

    Cory (03:40.983)

    No.

    I love it. No, that makes way more sense now. Well, we cracked it. Well, guess that's our show. No, I'm kidding. We're out of time. That's breaking news. God. Well, in all seriousness, though, how did you get wrangled into hosting this year's Games Conference?

    Leif (03:50.615)

    That's it, we're out of time. Breaking news. It's just an emergency update from the seller cast. All right.

    Leif (04:09.667)

    Well, I think it's because I gave a talk at Game Camp before. Is that what it's called? Yeah. And it was funny and Vanessa Capito recommended me because she knew I was a comedian. And I work in the game industry. it seemed like a good, a perfect match for me at least.

    Cory (04:17.614)

    Yeah, game cam.

    Cory (04:26.178)

    Thanks.

    Right. Right.

    Yeah, Well, we'll get to your game experience in a bit here, but I just wanted to kind of touch on, you know, obviously being host, you have, you're coming in from a different perspective versus all the attendees that are going to be coming in, like myself, who I was just mainly a sponge of just trying to soak up information and seeing what people were talking about. But I guess from your standpoint, kind of in that unique role as

    as host of the two day conference, what was your experience like in particular? What were you hearing throughout the two days? Did anything stand out? know, anything like that.

    Leif (05:14.37)

    I mean, it feels like the scene very much is in flux and it was a lot of people responding to that and trying to create their own. I think like a lot of the advice that was given during those two days was towards like building your own company and not expecting.

    Cory (05:18.648)

    Mm-hmm.

    Leif (05:32.201)

    the cavalry to come in and save you because what is the cavalry now? It's the Saudis owning EA. That's Jared Kushner owning EA. It's not great. I think making your own, what? We're fine, yeah. The amount of cope that was happening was great. was interesting to see. I had so many ideas for jokes about that.

    Cory (05:43.49)

    We're fine. We're fine. Yeah, it's everything's fine.

    Leif (06:00.595)

    I was advised very accurately not to go into them. I had a friend who does like a, he's an Arabic comic and we were gonna bring him in as the new president of EA and they're like, no, that's, everyone's gonna, what's the matter with you?

    Cory (06:21.163)

    Director's cut of AGS.

    Leif (06:22.505)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, if only, if only. I still think it's funny, but I could see how some people would be sensitive to that. But yeah, I think people wanna be creating their own things and following their own visions, and it seemed like a lot of the advice that was given throughout those two days was about that, about how to ship your own content, how to build a studio from scratch, how to take a...

    Cory (06:30.108)

    That's fair.

    Leif (06:52.051)

    indie studio to like a double-A studio. And I thought that was very helpful. Because often when you go to these things, it's often like, here's how to get your resume in order. Like I went to tons when I lived in New York and it was all just like, we have someone from Game Loft coming in and they're gonna look at your resume and be like, this is why you're not Game Loft material. And I think...

    Especially for Edmonton, I think Edmonton is very great at creating things from scratch and because the cost of living is low and because we have a great artistic community and a great games community, we are able to create small things that are good instead of giant things. But we often, because of the shadow of BioWare, which is a huge monolith that's very successful,

    there is like a chasm between those two. And I think that's starting, I think there's more focus now on the Indies and I love that.

    Cory (07:48.803)

    Yeah, no, it's really great to see and it kind of, I don't know. I continue to tell people that, you know, with the indie studios and everything, it feels like the broader startup and tech community of Edmonton of what it was, you know, just over a decade ago, almost. I feel like that's where it's at realistically. And obviously there's so much

    Leif (08:10.305)

    Mm-hmm.

    Cory (08:17.006)

    room to grow a lot more work to do but I mean there's there's a lot happening and you know that's why I feel like things like this show trying to put a spotlight on you know what are people working on in our backyard and you know how are they getting it to a broader audience to just be successful and help help grow the space but

    Leif (08:38.815)

    Mm-hmm.

    Cory (08:40.354)

    You know, in terms of the AGS theme, you know, it was around sustainable indies getting to that AA status. But in terms of sustainable sustainability and all that in the context of, you know, being a creative yourself in a few different disciplines, you know, what does that mean to you? What does sustainability mean to you, you know, so far in your career?

    Leif (09:08.82)

    I mean it's something I always struggle with because...

    It really isn't. The arts world is not sustainable in any way. There's always someone that will undercut you. You're at the mercy of grants or just lotteries. I do the fringe a lot. Your whole summer, basically your whole year is decided by whether you are picked for the lottery. It's an arbitrary kind of lottery, which is great because anyone can get in. But at the same time, you're just like, guess I'm not doing any shows this summer. That's four months of work gone if I don't get that.

    selected and it's all very, yeah, it's all very tenuous. So I mean I think that's why I have such a varied career is because I've just had to adapt to circumstances and be able to be nimble to the situation because if you're a working-class artist like that's what you like you don't have that trust fund of like I can hang around and wait it's just like okay I gotta learn how to write for games like I learned how to like

    write for documentaries, I need to learn how to do stuff. No gig really pays for everything, unless you're in a big studio or something like that, which has its own drawbacks as well.

    Cory (10:28.362)

    No, absolutely. Yeah, no, that's interesting. Yeah. No, I that makes makes a lot of sense. I and, know, sustainability kind of leads well into the next thing here and.

    one of the probably two topics that everyone was not wanting to really talk about during AGS and that was of course artificial intelligence, AI. know that and tax credits obviously we didn't want to talk get into details. There were government people yeah yeah it was a little tense.

    Leif (11:00.319)

    There were government people there, so everyone was a little cagey. Yeah, but there were some brave souls that did like go up and they were, I enjoyed watching that. That was, I couldn't comment on it, but I was like, mm, okay, yes, that's, yeah.

    Cory (11:16.79)

    Yeah, it was very fun. was just kind of those memes of just like, hmm, like Jim from The Office.

    Leif (11:23.164)

    Yeah, yeah, it was interesting watching the audience while that was happening. But yeah, mean, the tax credits are like, I think essential because of the way like...

    Cory (11:29.024)

    Yeah, I bet he had a front row seat

    Leif (11:37.842)

    I mean the reason Edmonton has such a great arts community is because like we have the EAC and the AFA and if you're at like a huge level you can also get Canada Council grants. So there is a huge amount of sustainability in Edmonton within that system but...

    The idea of trying to make it on your own, trying to be a small businessman as an artist, that is very hard because we are kind of in this weird in-between zone where you do kind of, you need those. The market is inflated because of funding. no one's really investing in you because of a good idea, but at the same time, you are trying to appeal to funding agencies, maybe by pitching your product.

    your art, I mean it is a product, but you're pitching your art in a way that would be appealing for a government agency to endorse. So, yeah.

    It's difficult. Yeah.

    Cory (12:43.724)

    Yeah, no, it is it is and you know, I think there was definitely more conversation around investment at AGS that I felt was cut short a little bit and you know, we we didn't quite get a chance to necessarily dive as deep, especially from an angel investment side of things. Mainly, was it mainly because of the fire alarm? No, that was day one day one just with with scheduling or whatever the case it was but having a bit

    of the investment conversation cut short, I think that one, that one's still.

    We haven't closed the door on that discussion. It needs to continue to happen to help see how we can have other ways to provide investment towards studios. of course, seeing where maybe that goes in terms of other aspects of digital arts, arts in general, and so forth. But yeah.

    Leif (13:39.795)

    Yeah.

    Cory (13:45.858)

    curious sorry were you gonna say something

    Leif (13:47.164)

    I mean, from my experience, I do think one of the difficult things about funding is like, and why some agencies are reluctant to give funding is because they haven't really figured out a way in Canada to incentivize success. It's often like, having worked in TV, I've noticed like a lot of like shows, it's just, if we get this grant.

    Then we're done. We don't care about the product afterwards. It's all about getting the grant I mean if you like most can a content is about just getting that grant and then it gets done and you don't care if it's good like I've been on sets where it's just like we have Whatever. No one no one's excited about this. No one's treating it like their baby and It's more about just like well, we got we got one season. So are we gonna get another? Yeah, okay great and It's mainly keeping the lights on and then it then becomes a make work project. So how do you?

    Cory (14:18.511)

    Yeah.

    Cory (14:37.487)

    you

    Leif (14:43.003)

    get that, you know, think gaming right now is trying to figure that out in Canada. I mean, other other countries have just been throwing money. Like if you look at Australia and they have so many games coming out of there, New Zealand, the UK, and it's either. Yeah, I think I think. I'm not sure. I'm just a dumb comedian. What am I talking about? Yeah.

    Cory (15:03.171)

    Yeah.

    Cory (15:07.951)

    It's all good. I well You're not a dumb comedian You were very funny as host of AGS. I will say that it was very entertaining. There was I mean We might as well but I mean realistically from what you can I think speak more on is really the the the AI side of things cuz that

    Leif (15:17.808)

    Thanks for the pep talk. I was out fishing for a pep talk.

    Yeah.

    Leif (15:33.147)

    Yes.

    Cory (15:34.446)

    that conversation that's applicable for anyone in any industry. We're seeing those effects, whether it's positive or negative, however you want to look at them. And, you know, depending on who you talk to, but you know, when we look at the creative scene, we look at the art scene, especially with the conversation of games from, your standpoint and your experience and being at AGS as, as host, what is sort of your, your take on

    on AI as it stands, you know, with your background, with narrative design. And, you know, how are you, are you using it consistently? Is there a sense of trying to implement more responsible AI? Yeah, I'm gonna let you answer. I've talked enough.

    Leif (16:24.698)

    Okay, well, with AI, mean, it feels like people, yeah, and I think like a lot of people like to be very binary with it. It's just like, it's eating the water, get it out of here. Or it's like, it's great. And I think, mean, it's a tool. It's a tool that's never gonna go away. Like it's very useful. There's no denying that.

    Cory (16:28.247)

    It's a big conversation.

    Cory (16:37.133)

    Yeah. It's poisoning the well. Yeah, it's

    Leif (16:49.85)

    I think like it's going to tank the economy, the amount of investment. It's like there's no way this is not a bubble and it's going to pop very soon. It's like the streaming services where there was like a hundred, a thousand streaming services all at once. And they were all creating all these TV shows and way too many, there was like a thousand TV shows every year and no one watched them. And now they're gone. And it's just this huge waste of money. And I mean,

    That's, mean, I wouldn't invest in AI right now just because of that, but it's killed all the entry-level narrative design jobs for sure. It's wiped out. I mean, if we're talking about games, the writing community is probably the one that suffered the most because it's probably the least valued. I mean, it's often the job that is hired last, which is ridiculous because...

    I think like really great writing in video games, comes from like marrying it with the mechanics very early on in the process, like and responding to the mechanics. It's not like trying to make a three act movie as a game. I think that's, that's, you know, chasing like another forms idea, you know, like.

    Ubisoft model of just like we're gonna make a movie and this is the character and it's just like okay great It's like I watched a movie. I had to do things in between wonderful, but You have a game like her story if you played it. It's just like okay. It's great I mean, it's it's a very artistic game, but it takes like one very simple mechanic and the writing comes out of that and you are piecing things together and slowly finding it out and

    it's responding to the mechanics. mean, Stanley Parable also is just like a great example of that, where you're responding to the mechanics of the game. But I think a lot of the time, it's almost treated like a win app skin. There's just something that's slapped over whatever the the game devs have made. And you can't really add much to it after the fact. You can only kind of just, you know, put some gossamer and like, okay, here's some characters and blah, blah.

    Leif (19:08.535)

    And I think that's a very lazy way to create games. I think like great games involve the narrative very early on. And that's an attitude that I think has been doubled down on with AI because they're like, you know what? I, as the game designer, I can just, you know, quickly tell AI what it is and it's good enough because I don't value. I think like that's the problem with AI.

    It's eliminating jobs that people don't value, but after the fact they realize how bad it is. I was telling you this earlier, but in the comedy community, everyone has started.

    All these small shows have started using AI to make their comedy posters. And at first, like for the first three weeks, no one really noticed what an AI poster was. They were just like, oh, that looks good. Who'd you get to do that? Oh, it was AI. That's cool. And now you can tell in a second if something is AI. It has that stupid flat style that the like the little bubble, it just immediately reads as AI. And the second you see that, you know, that's not going to be a good show. And it rarely is like it's always kind of a bad show. And it's just that lack of care.

    or thought that is put into that, it kind of seeps into everything. So it is almost like a red flag for the whole project, I think. If you're willing to outsource all of that to a machine, a creative act, what else are you willing to outsource? And it kind of shows your attitude. But at the same time, I get it. get it. Especially like there are creative ways to use AI in games.

    Cory (20:38.254)

    Yeah.

    Leif (20:51.854)

    you could make like an MPC, like an MPC that would normally have three lines have like.

    you know, a thousand and you could go in a bunch of different directions. But at the same time, if you're going to do that, you need someone to curate that. You need someone to almost act like a director like Mike Lee does with his films where he treats the AI like an improviser. you know, look at you still have to quality control. You still need someone with taste to know what those things are. And that's writing. That is writing in a way. It's just not in that direct way that we're used to.

    So I think there's a lot of interesting ways you could use it. But I mean, the thing is like, you're never gonna get anything truly innovative out of AI because it is copying stuff that's already existed. it's not, it's, I had a thing in the presentation I gave at AGS about how it's like the Wayne Gretzky quote. He, the reason he, he's like good players.

    Go where the puck is great players go where the the puck will be and AI is just going where the puck used to be like it was just taking stuff that already existed and like Repurposing it which I mean you can get some really but I would say the most creative stuff that comes out of AI is the mistakes These odd weird things that come out of it. That's that's the things that kind of I find compelling One of my favorite writers George Saunders, do know him?

    He wrote Civil War Land and Bad Decline. He's very funny. He's a short story writer. And he has this quote he always brings up that no great idea happens on its original plane of intention. So if you went to write, if you're sitting down to write a poem about flowers and you wrote a...

    Cory (22:29.028)

    Yeah.

    Leif (22:47.235)

    home about flowers who gives a shit because that wasn't the point but it's like when you get lost in it and it becomes something else that you weren't expecting as an author that's where the real creative juice is he says like none of his great stories he doesn't call them great he's not a narcissist but none of his best stories started that way like started with his original intention it's never just that and like

    Cory (22:50.032)

    Yeah.

    Cory (23:05.584)

    You

    Leif (23:14.113)

    AI is just giving you your original intention, which can, I mean, if you want that shortcut, if that's serviceable, that's fine. But I think the real art, that happens in between and then in like the frustration and all the in between and like surprising yourself in the process.

    So, yeah, I don't know. It's gonna take all our jobs. We're all screwed.

    Cory (23:37.456)

    We're all screaming. It's the Terminator. The Terminator. It's coming. It's coming. Or The Last of Us. One of the two. I mean...

    Leif (23:43.04)

    Yeah. And how do you feel about it?

    Leif (23:50.05)

    Do you use it a lot?

    Cory (23:51.089)

    I honestly I do like it's it's one of those things where you're you're in a in your in your job now, at least for me, it's it's becoming an expectation of using AI to help, you know, fast track the work to try and speed things up, but still ensuring you still have that human, you know, quality check, quality assurance and all that, which

    Leif (24:18.53)

    Yeah.

    Cory (24:21.146)

    is great. But I mean, yeah, it's it's definitely a learning curve because you know, they're they're up, they're changing, they're updating, they're it's becoming like streaming services, arguably, because there's more AI is popping up different AI models, and they do things differently. So it's trying to like, you know, one is maybe a little bit better for creative writing, maybe the other one's better for, you know, very detailed research paper style work.

    Leif (24:45.281)

    Mm-hmm.

    Cory (24:51.108)

    so it's like, you know, you're jumping around, trying to find the best thing and try to get something out of it. I, I, I do enjoy using AI. It's definitely, a huge help when I'm just trying to flesh out an idea and, you know, flesh out an initial draft for, for certain things, whether it's for work or for the podcast in my spare time. but, it's,

    Leif (25:09.751)

    Mm-hmm.

    Cory (25:19.436)

    It's one of those things where it does feel inevitable because for me, I think of it as social media where it's that extra new component that everyone needs to get on. Otherwise they're going to fall behind. They're going to get left behind and it's going to be like, you know, helping your grandparents figure out how to use their laptop. You know, it's it, it, keeps drawing. I keep seeing it go back to those types of parallels. So it's trying to find that niche of

    how am I able to use AI efficiently that I can still create that new workflow? And I think that's kind of the tough spot that I'm in right now is figuring out that new workflow, that new mindset of how to use it properly for the outcomes that I intend to use it for. But at the same time, it's interesting hearing such different interactions, different reactions to it.

    For some, maybe a misunderstanding of its usage in some ways, but also understanding the pain points too of these are destroying jobs, they're redefining industries, but even just like other things in the past, how can it create new jobs to help leverage the...

    Leif (26:27.403)

    Yeah.

    Cory (26:44.101)

    the AI or machine learning so that it's creating more automated processes so that you are, you know, maybe finding something that was completely overlooked and it completely enhances your project or your, you know, just overall day-to-day work. But obviously it's, it's a little more case by case. it's, I feel like it's always hard to have the discussion with some

    folks because everyone comes from a different perspective because they all work in a different industry. So it's good and bad in so many different ways. but yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure.

    Leif (27:23.252)

    Yeah, yeah. No, mean, let's go positive here. Because I have benefited a lot from AI, would say, mainly on the business side of just like having to send emails and, you know, it's like having a kind of a dumb assistant, but like an encouraging assistant that, you know, I...

    Cory (27:36.241)

    Hmm.

    gosh, yeah.

    Leif (27:47.874)

    One of the things that really blocks me in my day to day is just like sending emails asking for things is so humiliating Like is the worst thing in the world? Like I do not enjoy You know pitching myself for anything or like asking to have a weekend at us like a club or something. But just being able to say like hey, could you write this for me and then seeing it and just being like yeah that's not the worst thing but like as i'm writing it I want to kill myself like I just like I hate it so much

    But if it's already there and it's just like, okay, my assistant wrote this. It's almost like a point of removal. Like the AI is McKinsey doing something awful that I actually want to do but can't bring myself to do. That's what I'm doing with it.

    I've definitely benefited from that, like being able to like tour my fringe show and just like being able to send out press releases and figuring all that logistic stuff out has been incredible. I haven't found it very useful for like creative ideas. Like I've tried, you know, talking to a brainstorming ideas. I've never really gotten a single joke out of it. Like I've never gotten like a good bit talking and I've tried, I've tried like all of them and it just doesn't

    Cory (28:52.399)

    Mm.

    Leif (29:05.596)

    Quite get it and if it is it's like a sea level where I don't feel it like I don't I'd like I'll be like I'll try this out tonight and just know this is bad because also I didn't make it so I don't have that heart for it at the same time. But Yeah, I mean it also it like it it allows like low level, you know like Indies to operate at a higher level than they are I think

    Cory (29:10.852)

    Yeah.

    Cory (29:15.193)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Right. Yeah.

    Cory (29:32.687)

    Right. Yeah.

    Leif (29:33.555)

    Like even just giving that, my opening monologues at AGS, I had some like slideshows and stuff. had like some like, you know, John Stewart, like graphics pop-up that were parodies. Like those were AI. There's no way, like if I had to hire someone to draw those like parody pictures of Alberta games, I would have lost money on this. And it did allow me to work at a more...

    Cory (29:52.293)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Leif (30:01.747)

    not professional, but like more impressive way. And because it is just a throwaway gag, I don't feel bad about that. I would much rather have been able to hire someone to do that, no, I mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    Cory (30:09.425)

    Hmm.

    Cory (30:16.955)

    Placed into the satire, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, no, it's a conversation that that's never gonna end because I mean, it's changing so rapidly, I think just trying to keep up with it and just seeing what its latest capability is, is always the fun discovery of like, is it getting scarier? Is it getting more convenient? You know, it's always evolving in that sense. And yeah, I mean, it's

    Leif (30:46.024)

    Mm-hmm.

    Cory (30:52.881)

    I feel like we're going to get to that point though where there's going to be those comedy posters where it's getting a little tough to tell the difference and that to we're going to get there and but I mean for those for the indie groups you know not so much maybe necessarily using utilizing that too so that we can continue to support local artists and stuff like that because I think Generative AI is definitely the the scary one that

    Leif (31:00.904)

    think we will get there,

    Leif (31:22.419)

    Yeah.

    Cory (31:22.467)

    and but, but yeah.

    Leif (31:24.948)

    think there is something that human beings kind of can just sense in their gut when something is created with passion and when something is being derivative. I mean, when you watch like a David Lynch film.

    Cory (31:34.159)

    Right. Yes. Yep.

    Leif (31:41.332)

    Like a movie that's trying to be like David Lynch, know, like where it's just like let's be weird and like like It just doesn't have that same feel like there was some Netflix show I think it was like Red Cherry Cola. It's not some I forget what was but it was like it's Lynchian and it's just like you you play jazz music and you have like red velvet in the back and you think you're being Lynchian on people are being weird for no reason like no like when I watch Lynch like I don't understand it, but I know that there's meaning underneath it and there's something heartfelt and I

    Cory (31:44.997)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Cory (32:02.108)

    Yeah.

    Leif (32:11.295)

    think there is something, like there's soul. I think there is, I mean, this is very woo-woo, but I think there is soul in art and you can sense it. And I don't think you're gonna get that. Even, no matter how good AI gets, it's not gonna have that. You're not gonna be able to make a great movie that resonates with people and the human experience with, you'll be able to make Michael Bay Slop, sure, but.

    Cory (32:22.546)

    percent.

    Cory (32:36.786)

    Yeah, yeah, sure. No, I think that's the biggest takeaway for me and we'll wrap up here and we'll kind of keep going. you know, regardless whether it's my job when it comes to like marketing and storytelling from that lens or just more on the creative arts side of things, whether it's game development, game design, comedy, all of that.

    You know, there always needs to be that human element so that you can still make sure that there's that heart. There's that soul to it. And, you know, it's it always needs that quality check from a human to refine. And, yeah, you know, it's it'll be interesting to see where it goes because, know, this is in some ways I the fact that I didn't have this going through K to 12 college.

    Leif (33:26.205)

    Yeah.

    Cory (33:35.627)

    You know, it feels like it now it makes me feel super old and I'm only 31.

    Leif (33:36.039)

    Yeah.

    Leif (33:41.309)

    But I think we're lucky to have not grown up that way. I can't imagine what that would do to your mind to, even just, I grew up before the internet and.

    Cory (33:45.402)

    Yeah, I think so. I agree.

    Leif (33:57.859)

    everything was boring like you had to be bored and that forced you to be creative in certain ways and you know Here like now you can be constantly entertained forever. I don't know why someone would even be a creator Other than for the attention, know, yeah, yeah Because you could just constantly be entertained or amused I mean I used to like focus deeply on certain pieces of art because there wasn't much else like

    Cory (34:03.143)

    Yeah.

    Cory (34:11.942)

    Yeah. Or creator.

    Leif (34:25.938)

    I think we're around similar genres. The way people focused on The Simpsons and knew every single joke and rewatched it and it just became this thing. It became a style guide for my generation. I think focusing deeply on something instead of just watching a ton of stuff, I think that you get more out of that. think you go deeper instead of just seeing the surface all the time.

    Cory (34:50.62)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah, no, no, 100%. No, it's OK. know. It's fine, because for me, though, as soon as you brought up. OK, OK, that that makes that explains it now that there it is. Well, well, speaking of the jeweler.

    Leif (34:55.826)

    I'm being so pretentious, I'm sorry. This guy's a comedian? What, does think he's Lydia Tar? Get out of here. That was the Juilliard in me coming out.

    Cory (35:20.134)

    re-rewinding things back a little bit before AI was a thing, you know, you were obviously a Juilliard trained playwright, you know, who helped design, helped design video games for a living, narratively, of course. And again, I'm not a comedian, so this is just a very open-ended joke with no punchline.

    Leif (35:23.239)

    Yeah.

    Leif (35:36.562)

    Mmm, yeah.

    Cory (35:47.942)

    What does a Juilliard professor say when you tell them you're taking your elite playwriting skills into video games? None of them know about it.

    Leif (35:55.84)

    None of them know about it. No, no. I think they were just like, okay. Yeah, I think that was the vibe. They were just like, well, at he's getting work, I guess. I don't know. It was something I always wanted to do. Even when I was there, it was something I wanted to.

    Cory (36:02.961)

    Okay.

    Well that's different.

    Leif (36:14.449)

    look into, when you get to the Juilliard, they kind of give you an agent, and I was just like, what about video games? They're like, what? No. I kind of fell into it. I did some voiceover work for XGen Studios on their game Super Motherload. I played a rough neck called Carl Redden. then after I had graduated,

    they were working on the Low Road and they were like, I think they were already like two years into it and the writer they had was just not delivering any scripts and they needed someone new and I, you know, I had my Juilliard degree so they're like, okay, yeah, you can write it. And it was amazing. Like it was just like, I mean, it was full, like just thrown into this world that I didn't quite get. I was very lucky to be given this opportunity. And it was just like, it was amazing. Like I felt like, cause like I would come up with an idea and then like later

    or like our art director Scott would just have like pictures of the location like the next day and I'd be like, wow, I feel like Spielberg, this is amazing. And it was just, my God, it was a dream. And just learning, cause like I've always been a huge gamer like and.

    Like I grew up with the LucasArts tradition. Like I was obsessed with LucasArts. Like when we talk about like deeply going into a work of art, like Day of the Tentacle, Fate of Atlantis, and Sam and Max, like I obsessively played those over and over again. like...

    I just love that genre of storytelling and the Low Road was trying to be in that style of storytelling. So it seemed like a natural fit and yeah, it was great. What was the question? How disappointed were you? You know what was weird though? Cause I thought they would be more disappointed that I started doing comedy and my teacher Christopher Durang, he was like this very accomplished like playwright.

    Cory (37:59.124)

    no no!

    Leif (38:12.773)

    when I told him that he was just like, my God, that's so great. He was just like so excited. Cause like he was kind of like a comedian in a way. Like he co-hosted Saturday Night Live once with Sigourney Weaver and he was just like so supportive. I was like, I did not expect that at all. He's like, no, that's wonderful. I can't wait to see it. It was nice. was, Yeah, yeah. Cause I was just like, I kind of mumbled it. was like, I'm doing a standup comedy now. He was like, wonderful.

    Cory (38:19.875)

    Mm. wow.

    Cory (38:31.277)

    That's refreshing, like not the answer you expect.

    Cory (38:40.335)

    Yes! No, I love that. Awesome. Yeah, well, mean, you going back to the the low road, which with X Gen Studios, it's a it's a point and click adventure. And looking at the press kit, it it was saying it's there's over thirty two thousand words of dark, comedic dialogue. How like I.

    Leif (38:41.486)

    Yeah, just a lovely man.

    Cory (39:07.519)

    I'm curious, like kind of going back to that writers room for that. What was what was the creative process like, you know, of, pulling inspiration or, you know, you know, at that point in time, they're needing a new writer, a new new narrative approach. But, you know, what was how did you approach it going in? Not really having much experience with with a game, creating a game, essentially.

    Leif (39:23.928)

    Yeah, so.

    Leif (39:33.167)

    I mean, they already had like a vertical slice of like a whole level already made and it was like meticulously made. So it was like, okay, what do we do here? It was like, this dollhouse is already created with these characters. What do we make with them to make a story and then build it out from there? Yeah, it was a lot of reverse engineering.

    Cory (39:39.173)

    Okay.

    Cory (39:46.553)

    Mm. Yeah.

    Right.

    Leif (39:59.133)

    and figuring out how to make it a story-based game within what they had and continuing it further. So, I mean, I play adventure games all the time, like especially point and click.

    There is like a great community. People think that those have died off, but they haven't. Wadjet Eye makes like, they launch like two or three very classic LucasArts style kind of games every year, and I play all of them because they're great. But I basically kind of just built out from there and...

    It was a lot of influences. It was a corporate espionage game set in the world of cars, and it's in the 70s. So I watched a bunch of documentaries. It was like, who killed the electric car? Or the water-based car? There was something about a car that runs on water. And there was a lot of theories that like...

    they destroyed it because it was too, it would destroy the oil industry. And I was like, okay, we can do a spin on that where it's like organic. It's an organic car that runs on plants, like the plants. And we just kind of built it out from there. What I found really interesting about the process though, and what made me love creating for games was writing for games. It's a lot like writing for like film.

    Cory (41:05.393)

    You

    Cory (41:15.442)

    Yeah

    Leif (41:29.484)

    in the 40s or even the 20s, know, where you're, you can create a new grammar with mechanics. You can do things that haven't been done before. Cause I mean, with film or plays, especially plays, like it's all been done. Everything's been done. You're not innovating. Like you're not going to be the Eisenstein of theater. It's pretty much everything that you could possibly do has been done. Everything in film, is like, there's a structure to film that is very, but you can make like, like I was talking about her story, like that is like a very clear mechanic.

    and a way of telling and like people will reference that forever. That's very exciting. And there was one section of the game that I got, I'm being such a blowhard here, but we had like a file system where people were looking at files and I was like, the way to bloat to game and this is often how people think about writing is just like, this will add to our runtime. So just add more dialogue

    Cory (42:14.526)

    This is about you.

    Leif (42:26.287)

    And not making it active and that's how you get like that Assassin's Creed thing where they're just speaking for hours about like history and you're just like can I just go kill someone can I go You're like mashing this button just trying to get through this because they want that runtime they want that technical runtime Which is like, okay great. I would rather pay for a shorter game. That's dynamic all the way through been a long game that just talks at you

    Cory (42:41.928)

    Yeah, skip.

    Leif (42:56.046)

    So I was like, how do I make this active? Because we did have a certain runtime that we had to make. And I took this file folder and we made these conversation puzzles where basically you had to manipulate someone over the phone.

    And it's just, you're looking through these files, this dossier on these people, kind of papers please, like, and then you have like your telltale dialogue style of like four dialogue choices, but you are using this information to manipulate the person and there's so many paths you can go. I was like, oh, this is a new thing. I haven't seen this before. like, That was one of the things that got.

    good press when the game came out, Kotaku was like, this is one of my favorite puzzle games of the year. And I was like, oh my God. So it was just by random discovery. that's what I'm saying, oh, time back to AI. Oh my God, the blowhard worked. Because no one set in to make that, but it was just like the challenge that happened throughout was just like, this isn't quite working. How do we?

    Cory (43:45.044)

    Good work.

    Leif (44:01.43)

    kind of finesse it into something else. Just being nimble in that way was cool. So I mean, from doing that, I really came to love writing for games in a way that I hadn't exactly with other forms.

    Cory (44:19.068)

    Hmm. No, I love that. Really kind of brings a different eye, a different perspective going into the game. And of course, you do have another credit to your name as lead narrative designer and writer for Eggnuts, Tales, Noir, Preludes. Walk me through that. you were just a narrative designer. OK. Still. No. OK. OK.

    Leif (44:39.33)

    wasn't lead, I was just a narrative designer on that one. yeah, Martin Hansen's was the lead narrative, yeah, yeah.

    Cory (44:47.666)

    Now, kind of walk me through that project. That one was a little more recent. You know, what was that experience like? As I'm sure it was quite different from the Low Road.

    Leif (44:58.381)

    It was very different because with Low Road it was like all the characters like I created based on like the designs that were already there and everything was like my story. So I was like writing in someone else's voice and writing and that was like an interesting position to be in and where you are like, oh, how do you, how do I get to be your AI? How do I, no, how do I like achieve what you want while still bringing what I bring?

    Cory (45:20.34)

    Hmm.

    Cory (45:25.267)

    Right.

    Leif (45:26.357)

    And that was an interesting process and it was great working with Martin and yeah, just helping develop that lore. But you also like your writing lore, like it was a sequel to or a prequel to a game that already existed, Tales Backbone. So there's so much that you need to know about the world and adapt that. I had a great time. But yeah, it was just like a lot of writing, like just a lot of dialogue writing and yeah.

    Cory (45:52.916)

    Hmm. Yeah.

    Leif (45:55.573)

    And then the other game I made was Tales Noir Rebel Rush, is more of a, that came out like, I think last year or the year before. It's a racing game set in that world, like where you're kind of doing parkour with cars. It's very silly and fun, yeah.

    Cory (46:16.978)

    Okay. I love that. love that. What any more? I wasn't familiar with that with that title. What more can can you share about about that experience?

    Leif (46:30.893)

    I mean that was just so fun because it was almost like a completed game. Our game designer, he just made this really fun, silly game and we set it in the world of Tales of Noir and just had like little fun dialogue in between to give it a story. So it was one of the easiest jobs I've ever had.

    Cory (46:52.092)

    Love that. Love that. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. I guess looking back on those projects, is there any other particular like moments during the development or, you know, even after the release that, you know, that that stood out that kind of sticks with you knowing like doing work for a game is that much more fun because of certain

    Leif (46:56.64)

    Just make it silly,

    Cory (47:20.124)

    moments that occurred.

    Leif (47:22.956)

    I mean, I'm going to go back to the low road because that was the one I was most involved with. But definitely like what is different about games is you aren't experiencing the audience. You're rarely experiencing what the audience is getting unless you're like live streams or but we went to GDC and I...

    I really enjoyed watching people try the low road and just seeing when they would laugh because it was like at different times. It was like, it was weird times. It was almost like before the joke would happen on screen because they would realize they had the option to do this. And like, I'll give you an example. Like there was one situation where one of the characters won't do something because he's intimidated by this guy with like a great head of hair.

    and it just feels inferior to him, which, I'm right what you know. And there's one of the objects you can use is it's invisible ink. And if you put it, if you combine it with the shampoo, the guy will use it in his hair and then his hair will disappear like cartoon logic. it was just great watching them and they're playing it. And then they look at the invisible ink and they see that. And then like they'll laugh.

    before they do it and you're like, it's the option. I think like that's one of the things in games. It's not so much the punchline, it's like.

    the option to give them the opportunity. Like I experienced this a lot when I was playing Disco Elysium. It wasn't the dialogue that was making me laugh. It was just like, I can choose that dialogue? Like you'd see that list of like eight options and you're just like, wow, that's a lot of choices. And they're all kind of funny and interesting. I can't believe there's this much variance. like that's an interesting kind of comedy that

    Cory (49:03.86)

    You

    Leif (49:15.217)

    no other form has where it's the option that allows you to laugh instead of the reaction. like most comedies reaction instead of...

    Cory (49:25.192)

    Right. Yeah, no, that's fair. I guess I'm curious, you know, approaching the game writing aspect from that narrative standpoint, meshing it with something like, you know, your standup work, which was sort of another component of your career. you know, kind of looking up a little bit about your career there.

    your style is described consistently as dark, queer, and confessional, if I got that right. Yeah, that's the branding. You know, I guess I'm...

    Leif (49:59.344)

    Yeah. That's the branding. Yep. That's what gets the audiences running towards me. yeah. Dark queer and converted. great.

    Cory (50:10.229)

    I'm curious because like what I I mean, you know, from I guess just from a personal storytelling, maybe it's a vulnerability aspect, but what what aspect of that that branding that that that stand up approach comedy writing, you know, how does that

    Leif (50:13.61)

    I don't understand branding. I'm bad at it.

    Leif (50:24.564)

    Yeah.

    Cory (50:35.157)

    mesh in your your work when you approach things like games or if it's or even just stand up for that matter like you know what's kind of diving diving in a little more into that that branding piece

    Leif (50:52.842)

    I don't know if it does. when I write fiction, I like to write from a challenge perspective. It's not the less that I'm in it, the better, because I think those are often surface things as well. That's just a way of quickly getting someone to know you, but I think like.

    Cory (51:04.575)

    Hmm.

    Cory (51:10.165)

    Right.

    Leif (51:16.616)

    what actually shows up in your work is often not something you intended and that's more revealing. I mean, if you look at the movies of Stanley Kubrick, he is making wildly different movies, insanely different genres, but they all kind of have the same core and feeling and then it's like, that's him. And I think being like, I'm a queer writer, I'm a dark writer, I'm a confessional, that's...

    Cory (51:37.813)

    Hmm. Yeah.

    Leif (51:45.649)

    That's just the surface. And I almost like to knee into the genre or the challenge of what I'm doing. And I think my real core will come out that way. Does that make sense?

    Cory (51:59.018)

    Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that does.

    Leif (52:04.081)

    I mean, those things always inform. I love dark comedy. All my favorite movies are dark comedies. All my favorite plays are dark comedy. Yeah. Well, and it's harder. What is interesting about, it's like horror. You either succeed or you fail and both are kind of interesting. Whereas if you're just like, making a drama, it's just like, well, this could be mid.

    Cory (52:07.54)

    Yeah.

    Cory (52:11.443)

    Never a dull moment. Never a dull moment.

    Cory (52:27.797)

    Right. Yeah. Yeah.

    Leif (52:29.499)

    and we wouldn't even know. is what I like about comedy is if you fail, there is egg on your face for failing. And you know you failed. Like, writing something mediocre scares me. Writing something like terrible or great is like kind of the goal.

    Cory (52:46.485)

    That's a good call.

    Leif (52:49.255)

    I don't want to be tolerated. Who wants to be tolerated? The AI can be tolerated. Yeah.

    Cory (52:54.587)

    The AI is very tolerated. Yeah. No, no, that makes sense. That that sticks. But I mean, for I think where it really all clicks for me and. Really truly comes together for you as well, because we had talked about this before, you know, that the talk in around crafting comedic moments in video games was something you talked about at Play NYC.

    2017, if I got that right. And, off air you mentioned it's near and dear to your heart, so I'm curious, why is it so challenging, do you think, at being funny in games? We kind of touched on it, because obviously you don't have an audience in front of you, but kind of feel free to expand a little more on the challenge of that with games.

    Leif (53:23.613)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Leif (53:38.302)

    Yeah.

    Leif (53:47.079)

    Well, okay, comedy works on surprise, right? yeah, and timing is everything. And you are relinquishing the timing to, you're not there, know? Like theater, the performer is there and they can react to how much they laugh. And if they're laughing a lot, they can give more. If they're not laughing that much, you know, like...

    Cory (53:49.693)

    Right. Time means everything. Yeah.

    Cory (54:07.603)

    Yeah, you move on to the next.

    Leif (54:09.927)

    Yeah, or like they damper it so they be more subdued and maybe you'll get the laughs that way. But it is a dead engine. Like it is a dead engine pretending to be a live thing. And that is a real challenge because you, I think it was easier before. Like when I was talking about the Lucas art games, those are really funny games. But, and I would say most games I grew up with until like Doom and Quake, like.

    Cory (54:14.941)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Leif (54:38.119)

    were funny, they were all kind of funny. All those Sierra games, all those LucasArts games, they had like an element of humor and it felt like, this is like almost like a side comedy thing. And then once 3D came in, that went out the window because you were relinquishing time. Everything was very, it was basically a movie that you interact with, right? And then once you bring 3D in, timing is thrown out completely.

    because you could be looking in the direction, you know, you're playing Spyro and there's a great gag here, but if you're looking in that direction, you're missing that gag. And if you're not doing this at that exact time, like there's so much agency afforded to the player that it almost removes that dictatorial element that comedy kind of thrives on. Like you do need to be in control to get those jokes to work. And...

    Cory (55:10.421)

    Right.

    Leif (55:33.04)

    I think the solution to that is to create an engine that is very reactive. I think low budget games do this way better than high budget games. don't think, like, Portal's the only game I can think of. Portal 2 is the only AAA really funny game with surprising laughs in it. mean, South Park's Stick of Truth, but that feels like an indie game. It just feels like, know. But there are...

    Cory (55:57.397)

    Mm.

    Leif (56:02.0)

    I think, you almost want to be reactive to every single option or moment that could happen. And I would almost look at it like crowd work with the way a comedian builds a crowd work set. They have like their jokes, but if they're like, there's some really great crowd work guys that I've sat and studied and

    Cory (56:16.415)

    Mm.

    Leif (56:30.76)

    the first time you see it, you're just like, this is magic. He just picked this one person in the audience and he brought him back and he keeps bringing him back throughout the show and he's got jokes that connect to this guy and then he talked to this woman over there and then he combined, it feels like magic. And then you watch it a few times and you're like, he goes to a different guy and does the exact same thing. And you are doing sleight of hand, basically.

    And there are ways within gaming, within branching dialogue to do that. But it requires a lot of precision and a lot of effort and a lot of trial and error and so much game testing that I don't think people have patience to it. West of Loathing did that, but when you look at that game, story is the main thing. It looks...

    Like garbage. is, it's literally stick figures. Have you played it?

    Cory (57:27.828)

    Yeah. No, I haven't.

    Leif (57:30.757)

    It's great, but it's because it's low budget that they're able to do so many weird and creative things because it's all about just being responsive to the player. And I think that's the priority. I think like, indie is way better at doing comedy now than AA or AAA because they have to have those long timelines. They need to look perfect. And it's the sloppiness that allows it to be comedic.

    Cory (57:32.852)

    Minus the six figures. Yeah.

    Cory (58:00.714)

    Yeah. it makes sense.

    Leif (58:02.361)

    Yeah, I think like responsiveness and creating that illusion of someone reacting to you. Yeah.

    Cory (58:09.332)

    Right. I guess from kind of coming from the writing aspect too, and because I feel like from a, you know, doing stand up and all that, there is that level of vulnerability, whether you're more introverted versus extroverted or vice versa. Is there...

    Do you think there's more of a need for more vulnerability to be factored in for narrative designers? so, you know, just To provide those opportunities where, you know, it can get to be more funny and it is being still authentic and it's not forced, knowing that it's part of the story that the player is not going to miss.

    if they're looking in a different direction or stuff. Does the vulnerability piece play into any of it at all?

    Leif (59:02.808)

    I think vulnerability in this situation would be just allowing the writers to fail multiple times to build something. I think often with the pipeline of writing, it's like, just send me the Excel sheet.

    Cory (59:20.552)

    You

    Leif (59:22.03)

    and we're putting in the game, we'll give you our notes and then we'll put it in the game. And I think like to make a truly great, funny game. And when you look at, you have to be involved in that process of trial and error and redoing it over and over again. And...

    Cory (59:32.79)

    Right.

    Leif (59:35.928)

    If you're just sending a document and not getting to see it in the engine and not being involved in that part of the process, you're not able to really refine the comedy. So you can write funny lines, can write quippy Josh Whedon type lines, which is most comedy and games.

    But I would say the funniest games are made by people who are also on the design team. Like LucasArts, they were programmers. They were all artists. Their teams were like six people. And this is why indies are better suited for it because you have to be nimble. You have to wear a lot of hats. And West of Loathing I think their team is like very small. And I think like he did the art and everything. What's that other game? Undertale? Very funny, but he is one guy. So I think you...

    Cory (01:00:18.838)

    Yeah.

    Leif (01:00:22.253)

    Like in terms of vulnerability, it's just that willingness to fail and not present. Because I think when you are presenting like, is my finished document, place it in your game, that is very, that's a dead thing. And you're not able to simulate the liveness.

    Cory (01:00:38.388)

    Yeah, no. Right. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Well, on a more serious question, I am curious. yes. Sorry. Sorry.

    Leif (01:00:50.021)

    thought that wasn't funny at all. Do you me to get more boring?

    Leif (01:01:03.503)

    Let's get more pretentious, Corey.

    Cory (01:01:04.822)

    Let's get more pretentious. Well, we'll see how pretentious this may sound. Do you see your... because I get the sense that, you know, you obviously you enjoy working on games and stuff. So naturally, I have to ask then, are you seeing yourself doing more game projects down the road? And if so, how do you determine

    Leif (01:01:11.801)

    Okay.

    Leif (01:01:31.736)

    I would love to. I mean, it really depends.

    Cory (01:01:34.56)

    How do you determine that yay or nay, I guess, yeah.

    Leif (01:01:37.964)

    I mean, people need money. yeah, but ideally I would want to work on something where I do get to be involved in that way. Like I would love to be involved in a project where I get to be part of the design team and work with the engine and help build it from scratch from the outset. So you can make something like.

    Cory (01:01:41.428)

    Right. Yeah.

    Leif (01:02:01.364)

    know, her story or the paper's place, like where it feels very, where the narrative and mechanics are married, you know? You don't have that ludonarrative distance, dissonance. Because I think that comes from that process of writing, you know, where it's just like, let's bring in the writer after the fact we made a cool level, blah.

    Cory (01:02:10.699)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Cory (01:02:24.961)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Leif (01:02:27.254)

    So, I mean, ideally, I do just kind of, I would love to get experiences on AAAs just like for the scope and like what I would learn from it, but I would love to work on more Indies and like create original things instead of, you know, bios for swords.

    Cory (01:02:46.871)

    The swords need the bios, yes, but there's so much more to do.

    Leif (01:02:50.084)

    I know, I know, like there are certain people that when they play the game, they're like, if I don't know where this sword was forged in, what kind of fire? This is ruining the game for me.

    Cory (01:03:05.314)

    I don't like this sword anymore. No, I love that I guess should Should any so? Basically if anyone's listening to this or watching this then it is clear that you are willing you're open for recruitment for a game. Yeah Awesome, well, hopefully if anyone's listening, Leif's ready to go. Leif's Leif's leaves you ready

    Leif (01:03:08.205)

    Yeah.

    Leif (01:03:18.779)

    yeah, please hire me.

    Yes. Yeah.

    Leif (01:03:32.16)

    Okay great, yeah, we just ended with begging, that's great. No wait, can I do a bit of begging? I do have, I am taping my comedy special on December 5th at the Grindstone Theater. There's a 7 o'clock and a 9 p.m.

    Cory (01:03:34.953)

    Yeah, it's not, no, it's it's not, but wait, there's more. Sure.

    Cory (01:03:47.838)

    yeah.

    Leif (01:03:51.172)

    It's like the culmination of the last 10 years of doing standup and I'm going to be ship, basically shipping my material. I'm sick of doing it. It's great material, but like I'm moving on to the next phase of material and I hope some people can come. It's going to be a great night.

    Cory (01:04:08.747)

    I love it. Well, you're going to have another chance to beg people to come out for that before we end off this show here because I got just one more one more act. I got one more act. One more set. One more little bit here. OK. OK. Sorry. I'll cut it. I'll cut it. OK. So, know, now at this point and at this point in your career, you know, you're you're internationally touring artist.

    Leif (01:04:17.336)

    I thought we were ending. Okay. You can cut that. That was, that's embarrassing if I do it Thank you. Thank you.

    Cory (01:04:38.999)

    But I feel like there's there seems to be a lot of investment in in Edmonton and you know, you've obviously been at the fringe you're gonna be at recording at the grindstone You know, You've been part of XGen Studios, been at Blakbar. Why here? you know, What is it about this city that lets you thrive, you know as a comedian as a narrative designer You know, why why Edmonton?

    Leif (01:05:09.557)

    I mean, it's home. I'm from Edmonton. My family's here. My parents are here. And it is a great scene. it's...

    Especially for comedy, I will argue that it is the best scene to get good at comedy in. Because when I started, I was in New York and you would have to pay to go up and it was just other comedians, no audience. Because like audience members could go see like Jim Gaffigan for free at the UCB if they go on the right night. So no one's going to open mics. So you weren't getting any better because you're not being seen by audience. And when I moved back here, I was like, wow, I can get up like five, six times a week in front of real audiences.

    Cory (01:05:41.463)

    Right.

    Leif (01:05:50.221)

    And I was getting better so much more quickly and like we have such a great scene here and I mean that that kind of applies to all the art scenes here. And as people who are doing it because they care about the thing and not for the fame because we're not no one's getting famous and no one's making like a living off one art form alone. So you are you are like

    Cory (01:05:59.448)

    Hmm.

    Cory (01:06:09.045)

    Right.

    Leif (01:06:14.443)

    surrounded by people who actually love the work and that's really refreshing. yeah, I mean the winter suck, but yeah, whatever.

    Cory (01:06:17.335)

    Yeah.

    Mmm. Yeah.

    Cory (01:06:24.343)

    I mean fair. Well, and I guess I'm curious like, you know, obviously you you had the you've probably have had the chance to to potentially move out of Edmonton like still being in Canada, whether it's you know, Montreal I've you know, watched always watched the just for laughs thing on on TV growing up which where Montreal was kind of the epicenter of that. You know, you we talked before the show you heading out to Vancouver

    Leif (01:06:48.395)

    Yeah.

    Cory (01:06:53.771)

    with different things. Is it really, is it truly the scene here that's just kind of kept you like here and not wanting to move someplace else within Canada? Because obviously, like you said, New York's a whole different beast naturally, but you know, in terms of Canada, you know, having the different options, Edmonton seems to be it. And I am curious. Yeah.

    Leif (01:07:12.694)

    Yeah

    Leif (01:07:19.328)

    Yeah, I mean, it's affordable as a base, because as a community, the goal is to be traveling as often as possible before they realize you're only funny for an hour. yeah, You are like a medicine showman. just like, I'm an interesting person for one hour, goodbye, and then you leave. So you do need to be on the move. And as a base, think Edmonton's great. I think it's like, I have so many friends here. It's a great community.

    Cory (01:07:26.975)

    Right. Right.

    Cory (01:07:33.451)

    Yeah

    The effects where yeah

    Leif (01:07:48.832)

    Yeah, starting over in a different place, that's hard. And I mean, yeah, everything's so unaffordable. So, Edmonton's great in that aspect too. And there's arts funding, it's great. It's like, yeah.

    Cory (01:08:03.414)

    Yeah, I guess that's the one thing I've come to know is that over the over time, like you see it in the election cycles, too. We're not talking about politics. I say that. But like, you know, just Just the focus that is on everyone's mind, the art scene, the broader creative economy scene as a whole. You know, it's it's on the radar. It's it's not it's not getting just, you know, excluded.

    Leif (01:08:13.344)

    Yeah.

    Cory (01:08:32.408)

    At least from my sense, I consider myself an outsider, so maybe I'm wrong, but...

    Leif (01:08:38.263)

    I think we are wildly underappreciated in the national conversation. I think we have way better artists per capita than any other city and we are often ignored. Especially on the comedy front,

    Cory (01:08:42.636)

    That's fair. That's a fair point.

    Leif (01:08:54.217)

    I go to other cities and we have really, really strong comedians here and they're all very frustrated because they're not selected for TV opportunities or anything like that because they're just like, there is this Toronto idea where it's just like, Alberta. But I think, yeah, there is a decade worth of great comedians who have not been selected here and that's a shame. But,

    Cory (01:09:20.376)

    Yeah.

    Leif (01:09:21.097)

    again, they are still doing it for the craft and, you know, in time I think it'll pay off.

    Cory (01:09:24.28)

    Absolutely.

    Cory (01:09:28.246)

    Yeah, time will tell. I love that. Coming back to to the present here with with this show at this recording where, you know, we talk about game development and esports as the two pillars of Good Game Edmonton. And so I'm curious, like, you know, obviously some of the games in the esports arena are battle royales like Apex Legends, Battlefield, Fortnite.

    I'm curious from a narrative perspective, your take on, you know, story focused games when we have obviously these battle royales that continue to be so popular amongst younger people and just still having the space

    Leif (01:10:13.609)

    Mm-hmm.

    Cory (01:10:20.864)

    to create these story focused games? Are they in danger? Like, like I'm not necessarily ringing the alarm bells where, yeah.

    Leif (01:10:26.716)

    No, I think they're different markets, right? I don't know anything, I don't know much about Fortnite. I'm not, I'm too much of a millennial to know what that is. My sister plays it, she seems to have a fun time. But I think like what is nice about those games is they bring a sense of connection between the players, right? And yeah, and I think in the future, there will be narrative-based games that will create that

    Cory (01:10:31.66)

    That's fair of me neither.

    Cory (01:10:43.616)

    Yes, there is a sense of connection and community. Yes.

    Leif (01:10:54.236)

    sense of atmosphere, but it is a much different type of design. I think the people who are making the Hitman games are getting close to it. But I think if you could take that type of design and make it in a multiplayer type situation, that would be amazing. If you could create little story-based

    Cory (01:10:58.552)

    Right.

    Cory (01:11:02.976)

    Hmm. Okay.

    Leif (01:11:21.138)

    adventures for people to experience live. Or even you know, like You know dungeon masters like paid dungeon masters who like within a game or they won't do that. They'll do the AI version. It won't be as good but I mean, there's so many people with improv degrees who like this is like spend years and years doing improv like I would love to see a game where like

    Cory (01:11:23.607)

    Yeah.

    Cory (01:11:30.667)

    Mmm.

    Leif (01:11:45.981)

    paid improvisers are dungeon masters for a group of people and you know like control where the narrative goes. I think that that's a huge opportunity with game studios. There's so many different areas where you know that can go. I think we just aren't there yet. I think like we're at the primitive form where it's just like okay you're basically playing like Counter-Strike which is cool and fun but how do we make like a narrative game out of that? I think that's totally doable and

    Cory (01:11:59.682)

    Right.

    Leif (01:12:14.355)

    will be really interesting and exciting.

    Cory (01:12:17.484)

    I really hope you get your hands on one of those opportunities because I feel like it feels like you got something cooking up that you could you could make something work there.

    Leif (01:12:27.389)

    I'm just a windbag, that's all.

    Cory (01:12:32.234)

    I mean, was, Leif I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but okay, bud, okay. This is where all the EA money is going to. There we go. Okay.

    Leif (01:12:33.885)

    Yeah, Well, nope. See, this is where the confessional part comes out.

    Leif (01:12:46.441)

    But don't you think that would be possible? Like to make a live, I mean people are doing it verbally.

    Cory (01:12:51.7)

    I, yeah, no, a hundred percent. I mean, cause I, I kind of draw the parallels of, you know, those group game a little off base, but maybe it's sort of that group game night where it's like a whodunit, you know, you're going back to the times of playing clue, uh, with your friends.

    Leif (01:13:08.029)

    Yeah!

    Yeah, or like an evening of murder where everyone plays a part, remember those? Like you can make a live version of that within a game if you just create that structure. People would love it.

    Cory (01:13:14.582)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I'm so I'm curious. Well, and so then I'm curious then, you know, obviously having your experience working on games, do you do you have a sense as far as like, you know, why haven't they tried to do it yet? They seem to be very experimental when it comes to the battle royale, because that was just kind of a fluke around covid. And then ever since, it's like

    Leif (01:13:41.853)

    Yeah

    Cory (01:13:44.259)

    kind of hit or miss, they keep adding on. People are trying to not lose that formula, but at the same time, it's like for this narrative piece to be engaging and bring in this extra layer, why do you think we, we're not there yet, like you said, but why haven't we tackled it?

    Leif (01:14:04.393)

    I think to them it doesn't seem as repeatable as that, you know, because the fear with narrative is like, once you've done it, it's over. But I think we've seen through like deck builder games, you can make a very compelling narrative that is repeatable. It just needs a shakeup of the elements. I mean, Among Us is kind of that. Among Us is like a primitive version of that. You know, it's just a repeatable narrative kind of game where, you know, it's very basic.

    Cory (01:14:19.928)

    Hmm.

    Yeah. Mm. OK. Never.

    Leif (01:14:34.163)

    but the narrative is created by the tension between you and the other players and the arguments that happen in that game room in between.

    Cory (01:14:46.594)

    Yeah, no, there's definitely a lot more to do because I mean, I'd love to bring like a group of people when I'm playing something as story driven and historically fact finding of stuff like Assassin's Creed, but it's like it's only a single player where it's like, but, you know, people play a battle royale because they get to go play with their friends trying to find that

    Leif (01:15:03.291)

    Yeah.

    Cory (01:15:12.386)

    fun narrative piece where it's like, my God, like, we got to go over there. Oh no, did you did you find the the sword? You know that that kind of thing. But I'm I don't have as much narrative background like you, but you know, I'm trying here. But yeah, no, it's I'm curious where it could land because it's a.

    Leif (01:15:20.123)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Cory (01:15:36.449)

    It seems like an obvious opportunity and I'm curious to see if any of these, whether it's at this point, it'll have to be a new game entirely. Unless if they realize, maybe we try something in the, in these, but I get the sense there. They got the popularity. They got people bought in. They're not going to change the formula per se. Yeah.

    Leif (01:15:46.503)

    think so,

    Leif (01:15:56.285)

    Yeah, think the reason they haven't done that is because this is working right now and eventually when they get bored, then they'll start experimenting. No one really, like, given the nature of capitalism, like, you just double down, you don't take a risk, unfortunately. And I think, like, the most creative studios of all time have done that, you know? Like, they've done, they're like, why would you make a game like that after that? And it's because they know to, you know.

    Cory (01:16:04.364)

    right.

    Cory (01:16:08.12)

    Yeah, yeah, that was true.

    Cory (01:16:18.679)

    Yeah.

    Leif (01:16:23.291)

    Find the next thing, not just stay where the puck is.

    Cory (01:16:26.39)

    Yeah, well, you make a good point because like, you know, indie studios are definitely continuing to be on the rise. There's a lot more passionate community. It feels like that is the perfect community for something to be made, whether it's competitively on to become on the road to becoming an esport, maybe. But at least having that that competitor or not competitive level, but like

    the fun multiplayer component with some narrative that adds that substance to it so that there's a little more to it. And you can't just go out guns blazing. You have to actually take a minute, think about what's in front of you in the game and realize, we have to actually put our thinking caps on. It feels like an escape room where we actually have to work together and really communicate and understand.

    How do we get to point A from point A to point B? And then that creates a whole new conversation of games and this new interactive element of communication, teamwork, and all of that. One of the things I continue to fight through this show of the legitimacy around games and that they're not just a way.

    you know, waste of time or anything. There's a lot behind it. There's, you know, there's jobs that are helping make this game to, you know, these opportunities for players to grow as individuals. So, yeah, that's that's my Ted talk for that. But, yeah, no, I'm curious, like anything to to say on on on any of that at this point?

    Leif (01:18:01.373)

    Mm-hmm.

    Cory (01:18:23.267)

    Do you think or?

    Leif (01:18:23.74)

    Yeah, think time will tell. I think it will probably come out of the Indiesphere as most innovations do. It does feel like Indie is just a farm team for the AAAs. They just take whatever is there and cynically recreate it with a much better polish and then the rest of the world gets to see about it.

    Cory (01:18:31.79)

    Right.

    Yeah.

    Leif (01:18:45.948)

    That's just how it works. But I think it'll probably happen in the VR world if that continues. Because you're already seeing elements of it with Quest. It does seem to be, especially, I have friends, they have teen children and they spend their lives on it. They're just in there hanging out with all these people and like.

    an escape room kind of situation for them is fun and I think like you can just develop organically out of that. It's just like how do we make it like, you know, like a world where you can explore and yeah taking yeah, like Yeah Yeah, the seeds are there for sure

    Cory (01:19:12.664)

    Yeah.

    Cory (01:19:21.795)

    That's that next phase of games that were not there yet, but it's it's coming and you know, yeah, no, it's exciting. It's exciting. Well,

    Despite the, I feel like we went on several tangents, but I appreciated you going along for the ride with me nonetheless on this. But needless to say, I'd say this was a great conversation. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much, Leif. I still wish we filmed a lot of your bits, your opening monologue and stuff at AGS, because I'm trying to go back, because I was...

    Leif (01:19:39.727)

    We did, yeah.

    Leif (01:19:49.872)

    Yeah, thanks for having me.

    Leif (01:19:58.489)

    I do too. Yeah, it was fun.

    Cory (01:20:02.273)

    Like I had my notebook taking notes of like what people were talking about. But I'm like, I look around, I'm like, there's no video camera. I'm like, Leif is. Leif's got my attention. Like this is fun. Like this isn't, you know, one of those boring, like kind of intros of like, welcome to AGS and say hello to our sponsors. Like, no, like you like it was, it was that storytelling element.

    Leif (01:20:12.451)

    Hahahaha

    Leif (01:20:25.475)

    Yeah, I was cosplaying as Conan O'Brien. I was trying to do, yeah.

    Cory (01:20:28.665)

    I loved it. I loved it. It was great. was great. Ginger's Unite, I guess. I don't know. But, Well, I really appreciate it nonetheless. Where I'll give you the moment now to, to beg people, where, where can people expect to find your new, new comedy album, Alone Ranger?

    Leif (01:20:34.651)

    That's right.

    Leif (01:20:52.784)

    okay, so I'm recording my new comedy album on December 5th at the Grindstone Theatre. There's a 7 p.m. and a 9 p.m. show and yeah, it's basically the greatest hits of like everything I've done in comedy so far. It's my first album. So it should be a great night. And yeah, if you'd like to see what my comedy is like, it's probably the best opportunity to do so. And then after that, it'll probably show up on Spotify or, know.

    Cory (01:20:55.224)

    Yes.

    Leif (01:21:20.859)

    once it's all edited. That'll probably, that won't be until the new year. Yeah.

    Cory (01:21:23.691)

    Okay, you're not going to completely old school and put in on vinyl, are you? I'm a vinyl collector, so I pay.

    Leif (01:21:29.985)

    No, don't think there's a lot of people wanting to hear a man speak on vinyl. Like, it's such a warm sound.

    Cory (01:21:38.201)

    I mean, we could take a cue from Chris. He talked about, we'll do this one talk where we'll put on some smooth jazz and just kind of take it from there. You could always do that.

    Leif (01:21:47.746)

    Yeah, yeah. I did a show last night where they had like music playing during the show and it changes your timing. It's very exciting. Yeah.

    Cory (01:21:57.368)

    You do like that?

    Leif (01:21:59.542)

    I think it would be interesting to do for longer bits that are a bit more long-winded, but lead to something instead of having to be punch, punch, punch. Yeah.

    Cory (01:22:06.317)

    Fair. Yeah, yeah. Well, aside from Alone Ranger, where can people, where can folks go to see where you're going to be live next or what you're working on next or to just reach out?

    Leif (01:22:20.696)

    Yeah, I'm most active on Instagram. It's @ LeifOC, L-E-I-F-O-C. And I'm on TikTok as well, but not as active on there. And you can go to leifoc.com. My email's on there. If you wanna reach out, I'm also on LinkedIn, like every game developer person. Yeah, that's how we communicated it. That's, yeah.

    Cory (01:22:45.283)

    love it. Yeah. No, all good. No love. We're in each other's network. There we go. Well, yeah, the truest bond our network, our network grows. Our network grows. Well, thank you so much Leif We'll put all those links, handles in the show notes, of course. But I will say that this is our conclusion of our show. Be sure to catch my conversation.

    Leif (01:22:49.466)

    We're in each other's network, yes. The truest bond.

    Cory (01:23:14.263)

    with Leif at goodgameyeg.ca or wherever you listen to podcasts. Share with a friend, coworker, relative, enemy, your network, whoever. Goes a long way. And of course, if I can just say one last thing for everybody before we go, don't always take things so seriously. Have fun. Be vulnerable. Trust me, it's tough, but not impossible. Food for thought.

    Until next time, Sellarcast out!

Cory Sellar
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